Tuesday, May 23, 2006

Polygamy, Incest, And Bestality

The Parade of Horribles (also known as the slippery slope) is often invoked as a reason not to permit X, as allowing it will eventually lead towards permitting Y and Z. Currently, the most frequent use of the Parade of Horribles is in defense of laws prohibiting sodomy or gay marriage. If it is unconstitutional to criminalize sodomy (as the Supreme Court said in Lawrence v. Texas) then why end there? Will polygamy, bestiality and incest be found to be a Constitutional right as well? Lawrence said that it is unconstitutional to criminalize the private actions of two consenting adults. So why not three consenting adults? Or two adults that happen to be related to each other? Or a man and his pet?

Not to worry, say many legal experts. There are valid reasons to prohibit them, while there was none for sodomy. There are strong social reasons to ban polygamy, even all the parties are acting under their own free will. Polygamy often involves marring girls at a young age, while they are still teenagers, where they have little say in their arranged marriage to a man much older than them. Also, polygamy results in a glut of single males, as for every man who takes an additional wife, another man must remain a bachelor. Incest obviously raises health issues, genetics get all screwed up when relatives have children. As for bestiality, the animal can’t consent, so it would be considered animal abuse, so it could remain prohibited.

I agree with the reasoning of polygamy and incest, but I think may people miss the point when it comes to bestiality and animal abuse in general.

Prohibiting bestiality can not rest on the lack of “consent” from the animal. We don’t require consent from a cow when we slaughter it and carve it into roasts and steaks. We don’t ask for consent from a snake when we kill it and use its skin to make shoes and handbags. We ban bestiality because of what it says about a person who engages in the activity.

The same is true for laws prohibiting animal abuse. We allow pharmaceutical companies to test their products on animals. We allow hunters to shoot animals just for the sport of it. There are some activities that hurt and harm animals, and yet we permit them, because they don’t indicate anything wrong with the person doing the harming and killing.

But we don’t allow people to torture animals just for the fun of it- not because it hurts the animals, but because it says something is wrong with the human. Society has decided that this kind of activity is not to be tolerated, not for the animals sake, but for humanity’s sake. And there’s no difference between hurting an animal for fun, and having sex with it for pleasure.

But under the reasoning of Lawrence, what a person does in his bedroom is none of the government’s business. The government has no right to pass laws that dictate morality in how a person seeks sexual satisfaction. I don’t see how, based on the understandings of bestiality and animal abuse laws, how banning bestiality can still be Constitutional. And that is the problem with Lawrence v. Texas, where the Parade of Horribles may actually come true.


Blogger Shoshana said...

Interesting, and very well-said.

5/23/2006 10:03 AM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

The obvious differences are

(1) the government can regulate what kind of benefit one can receive from animals and how it can be received. The regulations regarding animal research are MUCH stricter than those regarding human research.

(2) Griswold vs. Connecticut found that there is an inherent right of privacy *for actions involving humans*. Animals were not mentioned.

5/23/2006 11:02 AM  
Blogger Classmate-Wearing-Yarmulka said...

the government can regulate what kind of benefit one can receive from animals and how it can be received.

Your point? Based on what I wrote, they have the power, not because of the animals, but of the humans.

Also, Griswold was about marital privacy. It's really fact specific. Later cases expanded it.

Also note that nowhere in Griwold does the court talk about "actions involving humans". The word human is even in the decision.

5/23/2006 11:15 AM  
Blogger Jewish Atheist said...

You also have to look at the benefits of the three scenarios.

With gay marriage, the benefits are more or less the same as with marriage: it provides for a stable family, which is better for the kids and probably better economically. It encourages monogamy. It offers the same legal protections and tax incentives to gay couples as it does to straight ones. It sends the message that gay people are equal to straight people.

Legalized sodomy also sends the message that gay people (and straights who enjoy oral and anal sex) are equal to straight, sexually conservative people. Moreover, in America, one doesn't need a reason to make something legal, one needs a reason to make it (or keep it) illegal. And there are none for this one, assuming religious objections are disallowed. Which they are.

Polygamy is complicated. There are probably some benefits, but I'm not sure what they are beyond the basic right to love whom you choose. There are also more downsides than for gay marriage. There's no way poly-sex should be illegal, but I can't say for sure that polygamy itself should be legal.

I don't think consensual, adult incest should be illegal assuming the couple is incapable of reproduction. I think it's gross, but I'm not a big fan of homosexuality from an aesthetic standpoint, either, and I don't think that's a sufficient basis for law.

With bestiality, you make a good point about consent. Personally, I think it's grosser than homosexuality and incest, but again, I don't think grossness is a reason for illegality. I can't say for sure that bestiality *should* be illegal any more than doing other things to the animal which it might not consent to.

However, the slippery-slope argument is still a fallacy. One can't deny gay people the right to get married simply because it makes arguments against other practices look silly.

Otherwise, couldn't the slippery slope argument have been used against criminalizing slavery? One could have said that if it's illegal to own people, it makes the argument that people should be allowed to own animals more difficult. It might have some implications for workers' rights that we find distasteful. It might lead to Blacks being allowed to vote! Etc.

5/23/2006 12:33 PM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

'Legalized sodomy '

Before the Supreme Court decision in the Lawrence vs. Texas case, anyone who had oral sex could be prosecuted and face ten years in prison. The law even extended to married heterosexual couples. There was actually a successful prosecution just a few years ago. But the biggest impact in practice is that spouses can no longer take the fifth amendment in divorce proceedings when they are asked about extramarital affairs.

The fact is, Americans don't want that kind of government intrusion. No politician is getting elected on a "throw the sodomists in prison" platform.

5/23/2006 10:32 PM  
Blogger Classmate-Wearing-Yarmulka said...

I'm not arguing in favor of sodomy laws.

But just because you're against it, doesn't mean that the law is unconstitutional.

From Lawrence v. Texas

Justice Thomas, dissenting.

I join Justice Scalia’s dissenting opinion. I write separately to note that the law before the Court today “is … uncommonly silly.” Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479, 527 (1965) (Stewart, J., dissenting). If I were a member of the Texas Legislature, I would vote to repeal it. Punishing someone for expressing his sexual preference through noncommercial consensual conduct with another adult does not appear to be a worthy way to expend valuable law enforcement resources.

Notwithstanding this, I recognize that as a member of this Court I am not empowered to help petitioners and others similarly situated. My duty, rather, is to “decide cases ‘agreeably to the Constitution and laws of the United States.’ ” Id., at 530. And, just like Justice Stewart, I “can find [neither in the Bill of Rights nor any other part of the Constitution a] general right of privacy,” ibid., or as the Court terms it today, the “liberty of the person both in its spatial and more transcendent dimensions,” ante, at 1.

5/24/2006 6:50 AM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

'But just because you're against it, doesn't mean that the law is unconstitutional. '


However, there are times when the democratic process breaks down. For example, There is no way that the rotten borough system of apportionment of state legislatures would have ever changed had there not been a Supreme Court decision that instituted "one-man, one vote": It was precisely the rotten borough legislators who had kept it around.

5/24/2006 12:29 PM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

CWY, what do you think of Justice O'Connor's concurring opinion in Lawrence?

5/24/2006 12:30 PM  
Blogger Noyam said...

And just because you can't find a right in the Constitution doesn't mean it's not a right:

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

You're an originalist, and you don't read the framers' intent as respecting the privacy of the person? I mean, the fourth and fifth amendments show a clear respect for personal privacy. And I don't think the constitution needs to lay out that the government has no place in the bedroom.

Do you really think "the rights of the people to be intimate in the manner of their choosing shall not be abridged" needs to be in there? Or maybe it's so obvious as to be ridiculous?

Your slippery slope argument could also be used to forbid adultery, and we know how the Framers (particularly Jefferson) would have felt about that! :-)

Besides, your quote from the dissent is clearly not the majority opinion. So more justices disagree with that than agree. Warrants mentioning.

5/24/2006 4:25 PM  
Blogger Classmate-Wearing-Yarmulka said...

Noyam- I think I made it clear I was quoting from the dissent.

And yes, certain amendments lay out specific areas of privacy. That doesn't mean that there is a general right to privacy.

As an originalist, I am aware that there were sodomy statutes on the books in pretty much every state at time the Constitution was ratified. Ergo, such laws cant' be unconstitutional.

5/24/2006 10:08 PM  
Blogger elf said...

I think it's important to maintain a distinction between marriage and stam sexual activity. Marriage requires the consent of both parties because it is a contractual relationship. Sexual activity requires the consent of both parties in order to prevent abuse. It should be self-evident that an animal can't get married, but I don't think it's equally obvious that bestiality per se should be prohibited. That depends on how we interpret animal "rights," which, as your post illustrates, is a whole other messy issue.

With regard to the other "horribles," I really don't see why they should be illegal, as long as they only involve consenting adults, and as long as incestuous couples don't have children. (Some states actually permit first cousins to marry as long as they are incapable of procreation. But again, we're not talking about marriage.)

5/24/2006 11:50 PM  
Blogger Modern Day Prophet said...

Interesting post, and may I state that I liked it quite well.

I am a "Libertarian" as far as United States government is concerned, and I believe that in the United States that the Consitution and Bill of Rights should mean something, even though they do not, and basically, to me these would make it so that if the citizens of the Nation wanted to practice incest, beastiality, or polygamy, then they could.

But I think this is only applicable to the United States based upon its Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Now, then, being Jewish I believe polygamy to be completely acceptable, because Y___ made provisions in Sefer HaTorah for those who practice such, and since the Torah is perfect, and His instruction, how can I, or anyone else claim Him to be in error by stating that polygamy is wrong?

As to beastiality, I think that those who practice it should meet the fate that the Torah beckons unto them - death, but this is for Ha'arets, not the United States.

And as to incest, I have longed felt that it was not the sexual aspect of incest that the Torah prohibits, because if it was then why was not Lot, and his daughters punished? And why was not Avraham punished? Rather, I the relationships in the Torah that are prohibited have nothing to do with sex, but with proper relations, and family harmony.

Again, interesting read. I will keep reading from now on.

5/25/2006 6:23 PM  
Blogger Modern Day Prophet said...

Also, in answer to "elf", some states do not prohibit cousins from getting married, because the Torah does not prohibit cousins from getting married, and since the United States is based upon Christianity as being the national religion (even though it's not suppose to be), some states recognize what the Torah does, and does not teach.

5/25/2006 6:26 PM  
Blogger Charlie Hall said...

'there were sodomy statutes on the books in pretty much every state at time the Constitution was ratified'

Things are more complicated than that; sodomy is a common law crime:


This created the bizarre situation in which the legislature could repeal a sodomy statute directly but an overly aggressive prosecutor could still file common law criminal charges in jurisdictions what accepted the legitimacy of common law crimes. Courts sometimes upheld such action and sometimes overturned such prosecutions.

Lawrence ended the chaotic situation once and for all. And they did so by imposing a uniform standard that is consistent with the laws and court decisions of most states at the time of the decision. That isn't what any of the justices said they did; they simply declared that the earlier Bowers decision was wrongly decided. (something the Supreme Court rarely does; conservatives should note that it creates a precedent for overturning Roe v. Wade).

Here is some more detailed history:


Note that in many states, the courts have been effectively deciding on the law in the absence of legislative action for centuries. One note: Connecticut repealed its sodomy statute shortly after the 1970 incident described there (possibly as a result of the incident).

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